The Judges

[commonpeople1]

Village kids
Originally uploaded by daveblume

Thoughts and questions on Barbara Kingsolver's The Poisonwood Bible.

Some questions to kick things off:

- Anatole and Leah: what do you think of their relationship? Is it hopeful? Is it appropriate? Is it misunderstood from one side or the other?

- I loved the girls discovery of magic in this section - from Ruth May's necklace that can take her somewhere safe just before death to the villagers various outlooks on ghosts, curses and so forth. What did you make of it? I also thought it was funny Adah's explanation of how her father was using the wrong word when speaking of God - conjuring the wrong mood for the bemused villagers (all there because magic had failed in their lives and they thought this Jesus was their last resort.)

- Has your opinion changed on any of the sisters? The mother or the father? I liked Anatole's development in this section, and his revelation to Leah that the villagers were secretly helping her family - giving them eggs and so forth. Another Kingsolver irony: they are more Christian than the Christians themselves!

My opinion of Anatole has changed. I thought before he was someone who would bring death into the village with the militia, but now I see that he's a teacher and represents what the father should strive for but is too blind to see - he truly understands the people he is trying to help and he is also willing to put himself at risk to help others (like rescuing the family from the ants.) He would never put others in risk, unlike the father.

(On a side note, the passage with the ants made me think of that video recently censored in America, by gay artist David Wojnarowicz - Fire in My Belly. Christian groups asked for it to be banned because of its depiction of Jesus covered by ants...)

I worry what's going to happen to Rachel - she's too dumb and easily trapped by Axelroot. My guess is that the mother will try to make a break for it in the next sections with her daughters - I'd be surprised if she didn't! How can she stand much longer being with that crazy husband of hers?

Comments

[verybadhorse.livejournal.com]

hi! i actually finished on time!

i think this has been going on since the beginning of the book, but it just dawned on me that adah refuses to use the last letter of her name in reference to herself. she is ada in her own mind, and adah to everyone else. clearly it's related to her fascination with the palindrome, but i wonder if there's not more significance to it: shortening her own name by dropping a soundless letter, renaming herself so slightly that no one would know the difference were it not for the written word (and she is so often silent).

i also just caught on to the subtitles of the chapters, after orleanna's section of each. the first, the things we carried, was pretty obvious: the journey to the congo, the failed attempts to bring georgia with them. the second, the things we learned and this section, the thing we didn't know, blur together in my mind, though. both sections reveal severe political unrest and also christian charity on the part of the villagers. both sections deal with learning and ignorance, so i'm unclear on the distinction between the two.

along the naming lines, i found this in reference to the biblical book of judges. before finding this little tidbit, i was confused about how kingsolver modeled this particular section, but reading this, it seems she did a pretty fantastic job of getting her point across:

The Old Testament book of Judges tells the story of what could be called the 'Dark Ages' of the chosen people. When the book opens, the 12 tribes of Israel are on the edge of national success. Under Moses and his successor Joshua, they have been liberated from slavery and have begun to occupy and settle in their Promised Land.

But something goes terribly wrong. By the time the book closes, central leadership has broken down and the tribes are at each other's throats. The people are oppressed on every side by enemies and in danger of national extinction. This book contains some of the most gruesome stories in the Bible - episodes of idolatry, theft, rape, murder and civil war.
(from: http://www.gci.org/bible/hist/judges)

i was totally fascinated, by the way, with the opening of this section, as orleanna bemoans her experience--and the entire female experience--of being possessed by men in marriage, etc., coupled with the evolving love stories concerning both rachel and leah.

[commonpeople.livejournal.com]

Great insights! I'm so curious now to see where Kingsolver is leading us. When I was Googling the book for a link for a friend (who I met for coffee recently and was talking about the book) I saw a few links to discussions on the book. I think there must be loads of good material out there to do a follow up after the book is finished. I'd love to watch some interviews with Kingsolver and see what she has to say.

Ok, so to which section should we read next? :-)

[verybadhorse.livejournal.com]

i don't know which section we should read to! the next and last sections are so short, but the middle one is lengthy. i do know that my book is due back at the library in the first week of february, so if we could finish up before then, that would save me an extra trip into town to buy the book (already renewed twice!). what do you think? i don't have a lot going on socially or anything this week, so i can devote a lot of time to reading.

[commonpeople.livejournal.com]

Ok, sounds good! :-)

[verybadhorse.livejournal.com]

so, wanna set a day to talk about the next (two) section[s]?

[commonpeople.livejournal.com]

Sure. When's the last day that you have to return the book? Should we do it that day or the day after?

[verybadhorse.livejournal.com]

it's due feb 2. let's aim for feb 1, and if it turns out we need more time, i'll just go find a used copy somewhere. it's a great book, i wouldn't hate owning it.

[commonpeople.livejournal.com]

Ok, see you on Feb 1! :-)

[verybadhorse.livejournal.com]

my opinions of the sisters haven't really changed, no. i find adah has lost some of her spunk and leah has gained some, but that was an observation i made after the last section, too. however, adah's experience with the ants was stunning. leah's persistent guilt about her sister's condition (and her own abandonment of her sister, the possibility that she is responsible for her sister's problems and near-death experiences) makes her a more complex character for me. rachel is becoming a stronger character--meaning i see her more clearly, not that she's getting stronger--but i'm still disinterested by her for the most part. i do find her vocabulary confusions sort of cute. and ruth may still bores me, but her delirium does make her sections a little more interesting to read.

i see the girls' explorations of magic as being a sign that they are actually assimilating, a little, to the culture around them. which is no small feat for them. the moments they admit to believing in the power of some of the local "superstitions" make me trust them more as characters and particularly as young women with unformed opinions about the world. i was a little worried, early on in the book, that they would remain terrified of the congo and blindly accepting of their father's faith (leah) or the culture they came from (rachel), but kingsolver did a good job of writing characters in this impressionable age group.

i love anatole, though i'm not sure what to make of leah's feelings for him. i don't think it's wrong or inappropriate, but i worry about the repercussions of her feelings. i worry about backlash from her father, particularly, as she typically obeys him to the letter and falling in love with a "heathen" will surely destroy their relationship. i hope it doesn't lead to violence from the father, although i worry that's where things are headed. i almost worry more about his vengeance than the political climate around them.

i'm confused by axelroot. i feel like i must have glossed over his initial introduction to us. do you think he is a mercenary killer or just a big talker? why does orleanna distrust him so greatly, of all people?

[commonpeople.livejournal.com]

Another thing I remembered: the four girls have in their own ways a suitor in this section. Rachel and Axelroot, Leah and Anatole, Ruth May and Nelson, Adah and... the lion? Death? Are these suitors the Judges? (if we consider that Orleanna is married to a major type?) This could link to your comment on this passage speaking of women's relationship to marriage (Orleanna's bemoaning at the start of the section.) If we follow this reasoning, then I think you are right that Adah dropping the h has some meaning - it's almost as if she is trying to remove the human from her since in some ways that's how she is treated by others. She is all language, poetry and perception, but from a removed, observation point. She loves spying on people in the dark, has an almost lack of fear in that sense (I'm thinking again of her connection to death.) She does keep having these close brushes with death, doesn't she?! Birth, lion, ants...

Didn't Leah and Anatole speak at one point about the French language and how it had unnecessary letters hanging from its words? Perhaps one of those moments when Leah was more closer to Adah than she realised?

I think Orleanna hates Axelroot because he suggested that she had other ways to pay for escape if she couldn't afford his airplane fees. I took it to mean sexual intercourse with her or her daughters. I'd say she's also picking on the hostility of the rest of the villagers towards him which is why she doesn't trust him.

[verybadhorse.livejournal.com]

i LOVE the idea of the french being connected. it's brilliant, ollie. and adah's flirtation with death makes me worry a little that she's the one who'll perish, who orleanna speaks to as "little beast" in her chapters.

[commonpeople.livejournal.com]

I think it will be Ruth May, but maybe Kingsolver has been giving us red herrings with her fever, death necklace and so forth. Maybe it's Rachel?!

[verybadhorse.livejournal.com]

WAIT now i wonder what kingsolver will do with rachel and leah, based on the story of rachel and leah in the bible! the deceptive father, rachel being more beautiful, the suitor being tricked into marrying leah instead of rachel...

and here is something i found on ants:

Proverbs 6:6-8

Go to the ant, O sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise. Without having any chief, officer, or ruler, she prepares her bread in summer and gathers her food in harvest.

what do you make of it?

[commonpeople.livejournal.com]

I can't remember the stories of Rachel and Leah in the Bible but I'm sure Kingsolver will do something with them - either reflect or refract with her own novel. Perhaps it's interesting to think what Kingsolver is trying to say about the Bible itself and its capability to reflect our lives (for better or for worse)? If we live by the Bible, are we destined to fates similar to the Bible? Do we bring upon us the sort of tragedy and salvation that makes up its stories?

The ant in that passage is unlike the ants that infested the village, yet it's very similar to the villagers themselves and their symbiotic relationship to nature. They are so entrenched in the world around them, so in tune to their reality. I just remembered one thing: how one of the girls realised that they weren't the first white people the villagers had seend, how Brother Fowles was that person (who also happened to easily slip into their culture) and I suppose that revelation casts a shadow over their perceptions up until then - how they completely misunderstood the people.

Back to the quote: somewhere in The Judges they talk about the village's politics and how a decision only is reached when 100% agree, how a majority of votes - say 55% - doesn't mean a victory because they'd still be concerned by the 45% who disagreed. In that sense, there is no chief or ruler because final decisions can only be made by the entirety.